The Angry Marines official forum. A Warhammer 40k club based out of Sugar Land, Texas that is here to bring competition and camaraderie to the local 40k community.
 
HomeGalleryUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:18 pm

So season 3 is coming up and sign-ups are in the store. We have the freedom to set up our little tournament league however we want and to do any house rules we want or scoring system we want.

Personally from my experience with season 1, we didn't seem to need a lot of house ruling or extra rules. I would be happy with a composition score, plus maybe a small one-time score boost at the very end of the season for how much you have fully painted. The composition score we'd have to figure out (like, do you give your opponent's list a rating 1-5 for how much you think it's cheese/having no weaknesses versus army fluff/being beatable?)

Dave said he would like to use the Adepticon faq plus some changes he wants to throw in there. I read the whole thing and frankly I think it's pretty terrible. The only things that are "oh, that's a good ruling" are the things that are either 100% obvious RAW or are already the way we play it in the store anyway that nobody really questions. Most of the contentious questions they don't answer with RAW or RAI but use a little "[clarification]" thing to indicate that whatever decision they made is arbitrary and is just how they felt like having it at their tournament, even if it's against the RAW technically.


TBH I don't think we need a lot of extra rules...even if we do, I think it would be better to compile some things people want changed in the game if they are really desperate to do so and then we vote it up or down.

Some people disagree with me on this, but in my personal opinion if there is a RAW or RAI or grey area or codex conflict, I go with the Occam's Razor rule and vote for whatever seems to be the easiest answer that makes the most pragmatic sense. If there were a DA player here that said that it's dumb that his storm shields are not 3+ invul. for the same price and when they are identical in fluff and as space marine chapter gear, I would agree and probably give it to him. If a demonhunter guy complained about the inconsistency on his outdated assault cannon, I'd let him count it as the newer version. If people complained about BTs and wanted their smoke launchers to work as everyone else's did, I would be okay with that. Between the slow slow slow GW codex release schedule, skimpy FAQs, different codex writers, and poor codex grammar, I think it's up to people to compromise and realize that fun games based on agreements can work pretty well. But then again, I'm the kind of guy who thinks that in a grey area we should look at the background/description/fluff of the unit and rule whichever that leans, so that's just me.

Thoughts?

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Angelofblades

avatar

Number of posts : 131
Points : 9956
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-10

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:18 am

I think yours is a terrible idea as well nick.

I mean, that's almost no difference in saying that should I play Blood Angels, then I have access to everything Codex SM have. So then would you let me have Tactical squads with access to a free heavy weapon (ie ML/ Multi-Melta). The codex's are written as they are for a reason. IG have had to play a 2nd Ed codex for almost 2-3 editions, and would have had to keep playing an old edition codex if it hadn't been updated.

If your codex isn't updated and you choose to play it, thats a personal choice. I don't believe players should be given concessions because they choose to handicap themselves. There's no need to play DA Deathwing, when one can play SW Wolfwing instead.

Also, I have no issue with the using Adepticon FAQ. What I would propose is that everyone read it and since this is OUR league, I think that everyone should be in agreement as to whether or not they want to use the Adepticon FAQ.

What I would like are not to play the same dam 3 missions over and over again. It wasn't so much of an issue during season 1 and 2, but in season 2, it just seemed like everyone was playing Dawn of War Kill points....

Ideas for missions could come from those who had gotten back from BoLs. I like the idea of primary, secondary and tertiary mission objectives.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:35 pm

Quote :
I think yours is a terrible idea as well nick.

I mean, that's almost no difference in saying that should I play Blood Angels, then I have access to everything Codex SM have. So then would you let me have Tactical squads with access to a free heavy weapon (ie ML/ Multi-Melta). The codex's are written as they are for a reason. IG have had to play a 2nd Ed codex for almost 2-3 editions, and would have had to keep playing an old edition codex if it hadn't been updated.

No no no no no- that's not what I'm saying in the least. I'm talking about inconsistencies of identical pieces of generic gear in the game, not eliminating any advantages/disadvantages of simply having an older codex (no one is going to change the fact that black templars accidentally got turned overnight to re-rolling all hits when 5th edition rules hit their old codex). What you are talking about with Blood Angels has NOTHING at all to do what I talked about....you are totally confused. Saying that suddenly codexes shouldn't have the unit entries they currently have or get some from another codex is nonsense and I have no idea how you even thought that was related to the examples of item inconsistency I brought up. BA are not SUPPOSED to have the same kind of tactical squads as normal space marines...they have other stuff going on.

I'm not pushing hard for this since I don't care that much but I brought it up as an example as something we have the freedom to do if we want. Between the inconsistencies in the codexes and timing and poorly written rules we have a lot of opportunities to come to a consensus between us as the players in order to make the games better and more fun. GW has even said this much themselves, exactly on the topic I brought up:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810079_DarkAngels_Oct_2008_5th_Edition_FAQ.pdf

"Winning at any cost is less important than making
sure both players – not just the victor – have a
good time.’ On this basis if an opponent asks you
if it’s okay for them to use the latest version of
the rules for a piece of equipment, or if they can
use a new item from Codex: Space Marines in
their own army, then you should say ‘Yes, of
course you can!’ Please note that ‘The Most
Important Rule’ cuts both ways, and because of
this, if you feel that a piece of new equipment
might spoil the game for your opponent by giving
your own army an unfair advantage, then you are
honour-bound not to use it.

As you can see, the nature of the Most Important
Rule means that it’s impossible to give a black
and white answer to any question that may arise;
instead you and your opponent need to discuss
things and come up with the answer that makes both
of you the happiest, keeping in mind that
having a good time is more important than
gaining a small in-game advantage. If for any
reason you can’t do this, then simply revert to the
default of using the rules from your own Codex."

Quote :
If your codex isn't updated and you choose to play it, thats a personal choice. I don't believe players should be given concessions because they choose to handicap themselves. There's no need to play DA Deathwing, when one can play SW Wolfwing instead.

First, not all armies have the SM ability to magically switch over to another chapter. And even your example wasn't possible for all of eternity and still isn't (it will be next month). People play and collect their armies in good conscience and are punished at random by the GW incompetence stick. We don't HAVE to fix this and it isn't our jobs, but the only point I'm trying to drive home is that a lot of people are living under the completely wrong idea that they are powerless to the codex fine or rulebook fine print DESPITE GW and the main rule book saying over and over again that the players have leeway to set the games up how they want if they want to fix holes in the game in order to make playing 40k more fun and make more sense. That's the same reason why we can toss the mission objectives in the book out the window and use whatever we want!

Quote :

Also, I have no issue with the using Adepticon FAQ. What I would propose is that everyone read it and since this is OUR league, I think that everyone should be in agreement as to whether or not they want to use the Adepticon FAQ.

I've seen some FAQs from other places that are simpler and better than the adepticon one, but even then it's not perfect.

Quote :

What I would like are not to play the same dam 3 missions over and over again. It wasn't so much of an issue during season 1 and 2, but in season 2, it just seemed like everyone was playing Dawn of War Kill points....

Ideas for missions could come from those who had gotten back from BoLs. I like the idea of primary, secondary and tertiary mission objectives.

I completely agree that the mission in the book are pretty terrible. I don't like the BoLSCON missions at all (they are intentionally super-wacky to give people a very unusual tournament experience), the NORMAL tournament missions and primary/secondary/tertiary lists they come up for Austin tournaments with are great. They are basically a much improved version of the missions in the book, without the bizarre too-weird extra conditions and objectives. I'll ask them if we can have a copy of what they use sometimes.

I also like their no-nonsense overall policy....this would be in line what what you want for codex-only:

Quote :
All armies must be drawn from the latest version of their codex or PDF. If they refer to other codices, the latest version of that codex must be used.
Forge World/Imperial Armor rules are not allowed. Forgeworld models can be used to represent appropriate models from a legal army.
Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters may have inducted/allied units as described in the BoLSCon FAQ.
Allied Daemonhunters and Allied Witch Hunters are NOT ALLOWED in Imperial Guard or Space Marine armies.

Individual units that may have multiple rules versions will follow the rules presented in that army's codex. This means a Black Templar Land Raider will function differently than a standard Space Marine Land Raider. Please take the time to review the FAQ's for clarifications.
Special/Unique/Named Characters may be fielded unless their rules would not allow them in a 2000 point army.
The models used in your army must comply with the BoLSCon Model Policy.
The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect. That means all units must be easily identifiable as the particular codex choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit must be clearly represented on the model(s).
You must provide access to your own rules (which include the actual Codex used for your army), dice, templates, pen/pencil, calculator, or anything else you'll need during the course of regular play.
A separate printed army list is required for the judges and each of your opponents.


Here is my overall, vague desire for our rules packet:

-A painting score bonus to be given at the end of the tournament. Something small and simple like:
1 = At least 50% of the army primed, with 3 colors on it, and some detail work on the models.
2 = At least 75% of the army primed, with 3 colors on it, and some detail work on the models.
3 = 100% of the army primed, with 3 colors on it, and some detail work on the models.

-I don't think we need a sportsmanship score for a league our size and since we are a community anyway. But if we had to have one (like some new person joins who turns out to be a jerk), I would also want it to be short and simple, like this:
1 = This person was a huge jerk and should be banned from the league, and maybe cheated too.
2 = This person was really no fun to play against because they were angry or unusually sour.
3 = This person was either a blast to play against, or just a very normal game (some griping, some rules debating, nothing that ruined the game).

(#3 would be the one chosen in most circumstances unless there's really an issue).

-I really would like there to be an army list composition score separate from the sportsmanship score. I've been to non-heavy/ard tournaments that bill themselves as competitive but fun, and they usually turn out disastrous if they don't have some minimum composition score (that people can fill out without feeling guilty if they liked the person they were playing against.
1 = This person's list was no fun to play against, belonged more at 'Ard Boyz, was built purely around taking advantage of loopholes and min/maxing killing units with no regard for that codex's or that person's home-built army's personal fluff or background. The army had almost no weaknesses (short range, no anti-vehicle, no transports, SOMETHING) and the match-up was totally one-sided. (super-cheesed out un-themed chaos armies, IG manticore-spam armies, etc. The army couldn't really get much worse. )
2 = This person's army maybe had a theme that fit with the army's background but was still maybe too "heavy" and seemed to be too good at everything. There's nothing I could have balanced better in my own army list to put our armies more on a normal par. Maybe the army only had two minimum-sized troops choices (Armies with not just a few but a lot of nob bikerz, 8 MC tyranid armies, double-lash triple-vindicator armies, super-mechanized all veteran + mass-pie-plate IG armies, etc. The army could be worse but not that much.)
3 = This army was a blast to play against win or loss, and seemed to have something in mind besides just pure winning...maybe a really cool army theme, maybe some units that aren't that great but are novel or fun to use, a variety of things from the codex, selections that were fitting to the background of the army and the fluff, etc. Even if it was competitive it had some definite weaknesses, like huge amounts of points in special characters, no strong armor, not much anti-vehicle power, not much mobility, etc. The army was not only balanced and fair to play against, but showed some creativity on the fun side instead of just the mathhammer side. The army could be a lot worse.

I would expect most people's scores to land at a 2 or a 3.....maybe we can let people put 2.5 if they want. Not everyone has to get a 3 all the time on composition, and what we are trying to avoid is 1's. I see this as rewarding people and giving them an incentive to put some variety in the army or lacking that option (due to an HQ choice or whatever), putting some fun stuff in the army or something that dies pretty easily but has a cool model or is something already painted. The examples in italics are just my personal examples....

And I would want keep the scoring of your opponent and his army confidential, obviously.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
David
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 170
Points : 9916
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:29 pm

We will use a modified version of the BoLSCon FAQ, as I originally said.

Composition will only affect your schedule, hardest lists play the other hardest lists / players

Painting will not be scored for our leagues on the basis that the same people would benefit from it every single time

IF you want a paint competition the GW does one every month, that or enter golden daemon competitions.

Sportsmanship is expected from every member of the club and all participants of the league. If someone does not meet up to the highest of standards, simply inform me and things will improve. This should not be scored in any way as it would be needlessly tedious to give everyone full points on it all the time.

Wargear will not be unified, each codex is different and will remain so. All Marine based armies are competitive in their own way and unification will further punish players by removing their uniqueness and flavor.

_________________
David Light --- PM me for Games
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:38 pm

David wrote:
We will use a modified version of the BoLSCon FAQ, as I originally said.

Composition will only affect your schedule, hardest lists play the other hardest lists / players

Painting will not be scored for our leagues on the basis that the same people would benefit from it every single time

IF you want a paint competition the GW does one every month, that or enter golden daemon competitions.

Sportsmanship is expected from every member of the club and all participants of the league. If someone does not meet up to the highest of standards, simply inform me and things will improve. This should not be scored in any way as it would be needlessly tedious to give everyone full points on it all the time.

Wargear will not be unified, each codex is different and will remain so. All Marine based armies are competitive in their own way and unification will further punish players by removing their uniqueness and flavor.

Thus spoke King David, self-appointed decider of everything for everyone, including what rules a consensus-based informal gamer's league has to play under...

The league is weeks away. There are a lot of people who can't come to the store or check the forums that often that should get the chance to weigh in too. Some people who will want the chance to play in by registration date probably don't even know there's a league/sign up sheet yet.

No on person's desires/opinions matter more than any other participant's. It's up to everyone to decide if they want a very minor painting score as an incentive to get stuff painted during the league or get to experience playing versus more painted stuff instead of 100% grey/black/blue models all the time. It's up to everyone to decide if they want to be able to decide themselves every game how they personally feel the composition of the armies they play against instead of having one or two people who want to run the tournament deciding for them how "heavy" whose armies are on the behalf of everyone. These sorts affect everybody so should be decided by a majority vote, not just by 1 or 2 people who have the most free/unemployed/whatever time to hang out at the store every day.

This is especially true when the decision are made on BS vague unsupported generalizations...for example...

"Painting will not be scored for our leagues on the basis that the same people would benefit from it every single time"

This is extremely stupid. First, if the bonus is small enough it's not big issue. Second, "the same people" only benefit from it "every single time" if they play the EXACT army every league. In which case they can't bring newer, deadlier units they bought, plus other people learn exactly how to play against them when they bring the same thing every time. If they DON'T bring the same exact army every time, then they have to paint new units like everybody else, and if they don't have time to paint that month then they also don't get the benefit "every single time" since they're playing with unpainted stuff. If they DO bring fully or mostly painted armies every single time, then their opponent gets to play against some fully/nicely painted armies once in a while instead of the regular "here's all my metal/plastic/black/mono-color guys you can barely tell apart on the table that I'm fielding straight out of box because it's the hardest thing in my new list" players.

"If you want a paint competition the GW does one every month, that or enter golden daemon competitions."

Why? Says who? Austin runs better tournaments than most anything we're going to come up with the first few times and they have painting scores or rewards ranging from small to big for almost every kind of tournament. Lots of places in the country won't even let people play WFB without having a minimally painted army, and these are communities/tournaments that could give a damn about the golden daemon or GW's "paint a model/tank per month" little events.

"Sportsmanship is expected from every member of the club and all participants of the league. If someone does not meet up to the highest of standards, simply inform me and things will improve. This should not be scored in any way as it would be needlessly tedious to give everyone full points on it all the time."

I agree that we don't necessarily need a sportsmanship score, but your justification is badly flawed. It's more of the broad generalizations = MUST BE TRUE habit. There's no way everyone would get full points every time. That's never happened once at any tournament/league I've been to, and I've been going for a lot longer. Sometimes being in a formal competition gets people stressed out, or people think that they can whine all they want in a bad game without caring if it spoils the fun for the other person after an hour or two. I agree that sportsmanship isn't really necessary but if other people wanted it (I am actually leaving this up to everyone not just deciding it myself), I can see how it would encourage people to keep up good sportsmanship in every game no matter how crappy.

"Wargear will not be unified, each codex is different and will remain so. All Marine based armies are competitive in their own way and unification will further punish players by removing their uniqueness and flavor."

Again I also don't think we necessarily need to streamline outdated stuff, but again I would also leave this decision up to the community instead of just me or just me and the one or two people I've bothered to ask. Saying that fixing GW screw-ups or incompetence on minor inconsistencies would "remove the uniqueness and flavor" from marine army or "punish players" is mind-boggling-ly idiotic. Having worse storm shields because GW screwed over Dark Angels players by making their new codex a crappy beta test for the REAL 5th edition SM codex is NOT what makes Dark Angels appealing, unique, flavorful, etc. compared to other chapters. People don't play Daemonhunters because they are the only ones whose imperial assault cannons are terrible for no reason. Streamlining in a league != unification
study

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
David
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 170
Points : 9916
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:08 am

We've successfully run 2 leagues under my management while you were gone. I've been here to see everything that works in this community and things that don't. We have a scoring system that will avoid ties at season's end in 95% of scenarios


If you want to run a one day tournament by BFG Hobby tourny rules, more power to you, but they have a much larger and more supportive community. Our leagues are built around players who can only play 1 game a week and for some their incentive to do so is the structured league with rules and prizes.

We don't have the budget nor the means to put on events on the same scale as what takes place at 3rd party stores and in other towns.

The FAQ for the league will likely take up less than a page, maybe 2 if we get army specific for everyone. Its not supposed to be complicated or much more advanced than normal games of 40k.

We're putting together a 7 week long system with a playoff to determine prizes.

Based on prior league experiences, players who were newer to the game or who had not previous played in highly competitive environments who had to play the hardest list from the cutthroat players were not as happy with the experience and it turned them off the leagues. I would prefer to have players face off against a more relatively equal environment that will likely produce more even matchups and more fun overall for every participant. Its hard to make sure a player who goes 0-7 will have as good a time as someone near the top of the heap.

The composition system I proposed, and got verbal agreements from a significant portion of the players in past leagues, is designed to even out the competitive level of the play across all parts of the league. In a normal tournament each round is ranked and re-seeded to match up levels of competition. Either we get a significantly higher level of forum and store participation from the players (allowing me to reseed the games and set matchups based on wins / losses) or we have to seed the entire system on composition before hand in order to hopefully balance things out in the end.

I was the highest ranked player at the end of 2nd season and I absolutely shouldnt have been. I gained a boost from a powerful player dropping out and leaving me a free win along with having a somewhat easier schedule than others in the top half. This was reflected when I lost in the playoffs, which, in theory balances out the system, but none the less it deprived a better player from participating in the playoffs due to my inflated win/loss record.

These leagues are not in and of themselves a tournament. They are a system of games played by a group of people with an entry and a prize.

Paint skill can be determined by the monthly gw events with prize support. sportsmanship should be assumed and if its not present, then as a group we'll have to work on behaving better. Composition has never before been used in our leagues and its introduction will be tricky at best. Based on our limited resources and limited budget, trying to run the thing full tournament style is not likely possible. Until we have a larger community from which to draw, and more importantly a larger more equipped store in which to host events, we should keep the demands of our group small and within our means.

_________________
David Light --- PM me for Games
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:35 pm

I agree that most of the basic framework that we put together for the first league and you and others have implemented since then is sound and good. Again, I also agree with you that sportsmanship isn't absolutely necessary, and that something that looks at painting isn't absolutely either (although I think the only people who would really object to this aspect of 40k are the ones who change up their armies/models/paint schemes all the time to field the latest sexiest stuff....sound like anyone you know David? Cool ).

The points you made about single-day tournaments or how BFG is different are not a rebuttal to anything I've brought up. If anything, the fact that our community is filled with people who don't have tons of free time for 40k but would like to participate anyway is weight to the idea that we should let everyone give some input on how things will run, not just the people like me or you who have the most free time/interest in micro-managing the league and setting up rules beforehand. Things like a minor painting incentive also work infinitely better in a league setting than a 1-day tournament...they have 6 weeks or so o paint things, and since there is a guaranteed game every week, every little thing that gets painted gets to be enjoyed in a game right away. It also means there isn't the pressure of trying to get everything painted the night before the 1-day tournament.

And NONE of this has a single thing at all to do with budget or scale.

If you absolutely insist on doing the composition issue different from how everyone else in the world tries to do it for leagues and tournaments when they do look at it (ie being democratic and empowering about it and letting people decide for their damn selves how they want to rank the composition of the armies they play instead of having some guy arbitrarily decide for them and their opponents who has how heavy an army), then you should at least modify it so that other people also have input at the beginning of the league as to how all the armies supposedly match up. When all the lists are posted at the start, people can say how heavy they think certain lists are (or at least the active people here on the forums will get the chance), and then at least there's some consensus and input. Not to mention that the "rankings" will probably be a heck of a lot better if several people decide them instead of just 1 or 2 people. I still don't agree that this is a better system or even a good system (when top seeds only play each other on pre-determined brackets for the whole season and same for the bottom seeds, you probably end up with very low seeds playing very high seeds at the eliminations, which gets ugly). But if this is the least work then we should at least give everyone a chance to weigh in on how the schedule/bracket should look.


Edit: all of this is moving away from the main and most important issue which is what if any "special house rules" are we going to use in the league with "rules changes" like some FAQs from around the country arbitrarily inject into their games. Otherwise it's going to be just people or a small handful of people cherry-picking what RAWs and RAIs they happen to like or not like, including things that we already play a certain way in the store largely without issue.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Zreggun

avatar

Number of posts : 219
Points : 9922
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2009-02-09
Age : 32
Location : Sugar Land, Tx

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:31 am

I'm going to ignore all of the "how should we run the league" cross-talk in this thread and just reply to the OP:

I don't like the Adepticon FAQ either. It's bloated and non-nonsensical in parts. The BoLSCON FAQ is much simpler and to the point, and frankly I think we can use it as-is, or with some minor changes to accommodate the new Wolves codex (which shouldn't be much as the codex uses a lot of straight-forward special rules).

I do agree that we, as a playing community, need to be a lot less up-tight about RAW in the codices we use. Stuff like Daemonhunter assault cannons and BA/DA/BT stormshields should be things that we're all okay with house-ruling. What does and doesn't count as a "Daemon" SHOULD be a no-brainer. What does and what doesn't count as shooting attacks (via psychic powers or special abilities) should be easily determined by anyone with half a brain (aka you don't roll to hit for Lash of Submission, but you DO have to assault the unit you used it on (should you decide to assault)).

As to whether or not we add arbitrary composition/sportsmanship/painting scores to your league... Frankly, I think it's all unnecessary. We all know each other well enough that sportsmanship scores should be a non-issue. Paint scores will always benefit the same people over and over again as the same people will ALWAYS show up with half-painted armies just because they don't give a (duck) about painting, or are too slow at it to ever have a fully painted army. Composition scores are too subject to our our biases and prejudices. I know for a FACT that David, Nick, Alan, and myself have TOTALLY different opinions on the respective power levels and usefulness of the various units in the Space Marines codex, and at this point there's very little anyone can say to change our opinions. If we want to VOTE on the relative power of our final league submissions and then match people up based on our COLLECTIVE opinions on everyone else's armies, then that's fine. But it either needs to be all or none. One person shouldn't decide how "good" everyone else's army lists are.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:47 am

Zreggun wrote:
I'm going to ignore all of the "how should we run the league" cross-talk in this thread and just reply to the OP:

I don't like the Adepticon FAQ either. It's bloated and non-nonsensical in parts. The BoLSCON FAQ is much simpler and to the point, and frankly I think we can use it as-is, or with some minor changes to accommodate the new Wolves codex (which shouldn't be much as the codex uses a lot of straight-forward special rules).

pretty much.

Quote :

I do agree that we, as a playing community, need to be a lot less up-tight about RAW in the codices we use. Stuff like Daemonhunter assault cannons and BA/DA/BT stormshields should be things that we're all okay with house-ruling. What does and doesn't count as a "Daemon" SHOULD be a no-brainer. What does and what doesn't count as shooting attacks (via psychic powers or special abilities) should be easily determined by anyone with half a brain (aka you don't roll to hit for Lash of Submission, but you DO have to assault the unit you used it on (should you decide to assault)).

pretty much.

Quote :
As to whether or not we add arbitrary composition/sportsmanship/painting scores to your league... Frankly, I think it's all unnecessary. We all know each other well enough that sportsmanship scores should be a non-issue. Paint scores will always benefit the same people over and over again as the same people will ALWAYS show up with half-painted armies just because they don't give a (duck) about painting, or are too slow at it to ever have a fully painted army.

Well I was trying to come up with something really generous that would give minor points to having ANYTHING painted (hell we could do 30%/60%/90%) but whatever you guys want.

Quote :
Composition scores are too subject to our our biases and prejudices. I know for a FACT that David, Nick, Alan, and myself have TOTALLY different opinions on the respective power levels and usefulness of the various units in the Space Marines codex, and at this point there's very little anyone can say to change our opinions.

Yeah. Although no one in their right mind isn't going to say that IG is insanely awesome, that chaos is pretty good, and the DA are kind of hosed. Or that vanguard veterans and predator annihilators are pretty overpriced.

But this is exactly why I wanted composition score per round. People can decide for themselves if what their opponents brought is good but well-rounded, a little bit on the un-fluffy or over-competitive side, or totally 'ard boyz abusive. I remember when I started going to Dragon's Lair years ago before you played and all the tournaments were based on good sportsmanship and gentleman's agreements for people bringing "hobby" lists despite no composition scoring, and then one person doesn't get the notice or is intentionally a huge douche bag and brings a super-hard list and kills everyone and gets the prize support, and next weekend 3 more of the normal people min/max their lists, and so on, until everyone is either playing super cheesy stuff at the hobby tournament or not attending anymore at all (like the guy with the fully painted Deathwing army).

Even a very little, generous amount of composition scoring goes a long way. Even if it's 3 points out of a scorable 20 or 25 in a round.

Quote :
If we want to VOTE on the relative power of our final league submissions and then match people up based on our COLLECTIVE opinions on everyone else's armies, then that's fine. But it either needs to be all or none. One person shouldn't decide how "good" everyone else's army lists are.

Pretty much.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
JeffK



Number of posts : 13
Points : 9206
Reputation : 0
Registration date : 2009-07-30
Location : Missouri City

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:33 pm

Well, if comp score is going to be an issue, then why not set a list for each army with modifiers for that list...

Example:

Chapter Master +0 (As this is a basic unit, no fluff, and has no spcial rules or restrictions)
Captain +0 (Same as above)
Librarian +0
Chaplain +0
Master of the Forge +0

Any HQ special Character -1

Honor Guard +0
Command Squad +0

Tactical Squad +0
Scout Squad +0
Character Upgrade -1

Etc........

Basically make up a list for each army that is playing and come up with a starting comp statline, then debate what the +/-s should be.
We can even make universal rules that would apply to all lists such as,

if a squad can be transported but chooses not to get a +1 to their score
Or if a unit would not normally be a troop choice then the list gets a -1
Any Special Characters or Character Upgrades give a -1 to the list
Three of any non troop choice from one catagory, ie 3 non dedicated Land Raiders would be a -1

The Negatives are the easy part... its comming up with the positives, that is more difficult

Would this be more acceptable to discuss?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:41 pm

I don't think that will fly because 1) it's way to much work to do for every codex and still controversial and 2) not all units are created equal or are the same in every situation (like ork boyz).


A vindicator isn't a problem but double-lash double or triple-vindcator/defiler with possessions so they can always shoot is kind of a problem, or at least worth a "medium" ranking on the cheese factor.

It's like a supreme court justice said about porn- "I can't define it but I know it when I see it".

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Zreggun

avatar

Number of posts : 219
Points : 9922
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2009-02-09
Age : 32
Location : Sugar Land, Tx

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:59 pm

There have been numerous systems suggested to create a numerical way of "scoring" the composition of a given army list. This is especially popular in the European war-gaming scene where most tournaments are 1250-1500 points and the "tournaments" really end up being fluff-based show-and-tell sessions where the guy with the best-painted, most-converted, awesome-looking army wins regardless of how his actual games went.

We don't have a lot of those kinds of players in Sugar Land, unfortunately. We're generally all more of the "play now, paint later" group. Smile

Now, if we all want to make an effort to be the kind of gaming group that actually cares about the look of their army as much as how well it plays, then I'm all for it. Lord knows I don't want to spend most of my free time during the week feverishly shaving, filing, gluing, and painting for nothing. I just think that, at least for right now, the reward of actually winning in the league doesn't justify putting any extra effort into the looks of one's army.

Thus the people that are already ahead of the painting curve can leisurely add one or two new models to their collection while most everyone else has to churn out painted models left and right just to keep up. And although many people are content to slap three different colors of paint on a models and some flocking sand and call it a done job, some people (like me) would rather play with an unpainted model than rush the paint job. I can tell you right now that in the 7-8 weeks that a league session would go on, I'd be lucky to finish painting 25-30% of my army.

But I guess the big question is:

What kind of competition do we want to have here?

Do we want a game of skill or a dog show?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:05 pm

All I'm saying is that facing down 2,000 points worth of barely-distinguishable black, grey, and metal models compared to a fully painted army of even terribly painted models make an INFINITELY huge gap in playing enjoyment. Minimally encouraging people with otherwise no incentive to paint to get off their butts and rewarding those that do it anyway is a nice way to boost what is a central part of 40k...ie, the stuff on the table looking like the army the models are supposed to represent and invoke.

Keep in mind I 1) am extremely busy and rarely have time to paint myself and 2) am a terrible painter and 3) constantly come up with brand new army lists (I have probably 10,000 points worth of space marines), so I am the last person on the forums this would benefit and am speaking the plain truth about the importance of getting stuff slowly painted.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
For Dorn!

avatar

Number of posts : 168
Points : 9916
Reputation : 0
Registration date : 2009-02-11
Age : 38
Location : Sugar Land, Texas

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:20 pm

I had no problem with the way Season 2 was ran. Great Job David! alien

So I say keep it the same.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://fordorn.blogspot.com/
TheRuss

avatar

Number of posts : 72
Points : 9831
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2009-02-11
Age : 29

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:44 pm

it worked out great last season there is no need to change it
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:08 am

Edit: On further thought I *REALLY* think we should just use the rules from the back as-is, at least for this season. AFAIK this is the plan.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:35 pm

When are we going to post the rules? The ones Colby came up with are super and should be posted right away (he wrote them over a week ago). After all, army list submission date is soon.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
David
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 170
Points : 9916
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:22 pm

Nick wrote:
When are we going to post the rules? The ones Colby came up with are super and should be posted right away (he wrote them over a week ago). After all, army list submission date is soon.

Army List submission date was today, and was going to be done without a knowledge of the missions.

Due to something that popped up today, I was unable to make it into the store to see if anyone actually turned in lists.

I'll be sending everyone who's forum name I know a demand for lists ASAP because it would still be best if this week were the first week.

_________________
David Light --- PM me for Games
Back to top Go down
View user profile
David
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 170
Points : 9916
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:39 pm

Apparently my private message box is broken and I cant seem to fix it

I need as many people as can do so to either bring their lists to the store and ask to see the Angry Marines folder and put the list in there, or email it to me: David.w.Light@gmail.com or give them to me in person so that we can have a series of master copies that will be posted here on the website.

I'll have matchups ready to go by Tuesday night with or without lists. If I dont have lists, players will still play, and after their game both leave a copy of their list in the folder in the store.

Missions will be placed in the Folder as of Tuesday night when the matchups are posted in store. Later that night each will also be posted on the website.

_________________
David Light --- PM me for Games
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:48 am

My list is 4x wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts with power fists storm shields and runic armor, all of which are base toughness 5 and hit at str 10, with various 5 point upgrades to make them different

plus 2x lone wolves in terminator armor with storm shields and chainfists

plus 40 grey hunters in rhinos with standards wulfen and wolf guard with powerfists

let's do this

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Zreggun

avatar

Number of posts : 219
Points : 9922
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2009-02-09
Age : 32
Location : Sugar Land, Tx

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:48 am

Are you being sarcastic or is that really the army you want to play?

Cause last time I checked you don't have 4 guys in power armor riding huge wolves modeled. Razz
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:58 pm

My guys don't even have wolves on their planet so I wouldn't model them on wolves anyway. I'd model them on something Germanic, and I just so happen to have 10 Empire Knight Battlehorses. I am pretty sure that I could convert 4 of those and rape everyone with them.


But no, that is not what I am planning on running. If I were smart I would, and it would be fun, but I'd rather play something more normal where I can use more of the conversions that I already have. And my chapter isn't themed so strongly around horse-riding guys so I'd rather go for another angle for a "get it painted" army.

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Nick
Adeptus Mechanicus (Web Master)
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Points : 9907
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-02-08
Location : Sugar Land

PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:18 am

david I e-mailed you my list, for better or worse (hard a very hard time settling on one)


also I think I should be seeded at the bottom (once the other lists come through)

_________________
Founder of the Storm Reaver Chapter, a DIY Space Marine Army
www.storm-reavers.net (revamp and update coming fall 2009).

Season 1 League Record:
2-3-0 W-D-L, 1500 Vulkan He'Stan army

Feel free to visit my personal political website at www.redhottexans.com
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.storm-reavers.net
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?   

Back to top Go down
 
What do you guys want to set up rules-wise for Season 3?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Hey how you guys doing?
» Rate these guys
» Well guys this is it
» Sorry, guys!
» Hi guys. Steve here.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The Angry Marines :: Warhammer 40k League-
Jump to: