Can we come to some sort of club agreement on "Demons"?

I know we generally don't need to house rule too much but looking at the new SW got me thinking about "demons". This is the sort of thing GW should include in an FAQ but doesn't.

Demon is not a category of unit or a special rule. It's a type of unit, typically with Fearless and 5+ invul.

In the old old demonhunters codex, "Demon refers to the following units":

"All demonhosts, greater demons and demon packs, demon beasts, nurglings, demonically possessed vehicles, or those with parasite possession, living vehicle or mtuated hull, eldar avatars, possessed chaos marines, and chaos lords with demonic stature and/or over 50 points of demonic gifts."

Of course, to this you need to add the entire demon codex just to be clear. And I would advocate adding chaos lords who have over 50 points of demonic upgrades, ie demon weapons, demonic steeds and....wings I guess?

On top of that is the question about Obliterators. In their short fluff entry practically every other sentence mentions how demonic they are and how they are either demonically possessed or have a demonic virus. The Obliterator bodyguards in Dawn of War are called Demonkin Obliterators. Whoever wrote the wikipedia page for them writes that they count as demons. They aren't listed in the demonhunters codex, which was released way before the chaos codex. There's no special rule in the Obliterator entry listing them as demons, but that's because no such special rule exists. They just have the same built-in fearless and 5+ invul. as possessed marines and the Demon Codex. RAI I would count as Demons for game purposes in light of GW's sloppiness.

Feel free to exchange daemon = demon wherever you want in this post.

Your thoughts?

The only things that are daemons according to the rules are:

Chaos SM: Summoned Greater Daemons, Summoned Lesser Daemons, Daemon Prince

Chaos Daemons: The whole book

Eldar: The Avatar

Thats it (unless im forgetting something small in other side codexes, but these are the main ones)

Possessed are not daemons by the rules, nor are obliterators, and especially chaos lords or sorcerers with wargear. The only vehicle that could be considered a daemon is a Soulgrinder, those with the possession rule are not daemons.

Daemon is a special rule. Its in the Daemons book and the Eldar book. It also is the name of 3 models in the Chaos SM book.

Playing RAW and in Tournaments, the only models affected by the rule in the SW book are listed above.

What David said. Anything else is just an Easter Egg Hunt.

In fact, wasn't this covered in Daemonhunters FAQ?

What Dave said is COMPLETELY wrong. I didn't respond earlier because I've been busy in New York.

Colby: there is nothing about this in the Demonhunters FAQ. I checked every single FAQ before I made the thread: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180153_Daemonhunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

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Playing RAW and in Tournaments, the only models affected by the rule in the SW book are listed above.

There IS no "read as written" because there is NO rule in the rulebook that outlines what a demon is and what counts as one. There is not even any rule in the game that says, "Something counts as a demon if it has the title or word 'demon' in the exact name of the entry of the unit". We play it like that because we all automatically assume that it's blatantly obvious that something called "demonic this or that" is going to count as a demon for game purposes. The ONLY time in the entire game where a list of SPECIALLY clarified counts what as demons for game purposes was in Codex: Demonhunters. There is a reason for this...with that codex, it was the first time in the game where something was specifically affected for no reason other than it was classified as a "demon". Likewise, that list was written long before the current CSM codex, which is why it does not list obliterators. The other units were in the older version of the CSM codex when Codex: Demonhunters came out, which is why they are listed. If someone has the older CSM codex or a pdf of it and Obliterator Cults were a unit back then (which I do not remember being the case from what I remember from third edition), then I completely retract my argument that Obliterators should obviously be included in the modern count of demons.

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The only things that are daemons according to the rules are:

Again, you are citing rules that do not exist. There is nothing in C:CSM that specifically says that the greater demon, lesser demons, and demon prince count as "demons for game purposes." Not a single sentence. There is not a single thing in the unit entry about it. We just assume that it is obvious and that things that affect "demons" should affect them.

The only time in the entire game that a clear, specific list (ie RAW) of what counts as demons has been given was on page 20 of the Demonhunters codex, under the entry of "Daemons Terminology". Again, this lists the following units (which were the only demonic units in the previous CSM codex when that one was out):

Quote :

"All demonhosts, greater demons and demon packs,
demon beasts, nurglings, demonically possessed vehicles, or those with
parasite possession, living vehicle or mutated hull, eldar avatars,
possessed chaos marines, and chaos lords with demonic stature and/or
over 50 points of demonic gifts."

This made it CLEAR that 1) things that had "daemon" in the name WERE obviously considered daemons in the rules and 2) that there were things that did NOT have "daemon" in the entry name of the unit for pragmatic reasons that WERE still OBVIOUSLY "daemons" in the game rules, such as Nurglings and Possessed Space Marines.

The ONLY WAY you could try to say that these are NOT daemons in terms of game rules is to claim that these units count as daemons when fighting a daemon hunter army and magically are NOT daemons when playing against any other kind of army. For example, this means that Possessed Space Marines, who are explictly listed as counting as daemons in the DAEMON Hunter codex, who are literally POSSESSED BY DEMONS, who are described as having "a daemon trapped inside the body of the Possessed", who have the same rules (fearless, 5+ invul.) as every other kind of demon in the game, and even have a special rule called "daemonkin", are SOMEHOW not "daemons" when deployed on the table versus a normal codex, but MAGICALLY somehow become DAEMONY-ER when fighting a daemon hunter army (wtf, do they instantly grow extra arms or something?)

If someone tries to make that argument with me, at that point I assume I am playing with someone who is intentionally pretending to be a retard, and I pack up my figures because playing that kind of person is not worth my time.

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The only vehicle that could be considered a daemon is a Soulgrinder, those with the possession rule are not daemons.

You can MAKE any kind of statement you want and throw it out there, but that alone doesn't make it true in the list. There is no modern list of daemon vehicles out there that leaves out or specifically excludes vehicles with the Demonic Possession rule. In FACT, if you REALLY want to claim RAW, then you HAVE to use the ONLY list of demonic vehicles out there, which is the one from page 20 of the Daemonhunter codex, which specicically goes out of its way to say that, YES, anything with the Possession upgrade IS counted as a daemon in game turns....you know....BECAUSE THERE IS A FREAKING DEMON LIVING INSIDE IT

The only things you can count as daemons are things that have come out after that that ALSO specifically say that they are ALSO daemons, IE the clarification to that effect at the beginning of the rather new Codex: Daemons stating that ALL the new units listed are ALSO daemons.

The same thing goes for the daemonic wargear aspect. If you want to COMPLETELY play RAW instead of RAI, then you do NOT count any daemonic upgrades for "Chaos Sorcerors", and only look at "Chaos Lords". And then it only counts as a daemon if it has a daemonic weapon AND a daemonic steed, since RAW the gear is not explictly listed anywhere and therefore you can only take it from what's in the name (again, my whole post was intended to bring up RAI/common sense, which would include "Wings" as daemonic wargear and Obliterators as daemons, but even with pure RAW something with weapon + steed counts as a daemon since its over 50 points of wargear that has daemon in the name...which is obviously something you count as good enough for RAW since you included Greater Daemons and Co. as "daemons" despite them not having a rule in the entry a la Avatar that explicitly said so!)....ie, " It also is the name of 3 models in the Chaos SM book."

As for the avatar, in the Eldar codex (written by a different person), there's a special entry in the unit because 1) it's there to specifically explain why the unit has an invunerable save and normal save of the kind it does and 2) to make it known that it is a daemon since nothing else in the codex is daemonic or warp-based or whatever. Frankly, this is really for game's sake and not for fluff, because all the fluff and stories of the original chaos gods make it pretty clear that the eldar gods (who fought the C'Tan) are not the same as the gods who came from the warp which mutated and corrupted everything. The Avatar doesn't even come from the Warp- it's essence lives in the Wraithbone of the Craftworld and inhabits the suit of armor when summoned. This is explained in more detail in the (old) Eldar novel that's been published. Fluff-wise it's terrible to call it a "daemon", but hey. If this weren't listed as a "daemon", no one would ever know that it is intended to be (I mean, you don't count the C'Tan gods as being "daemons"). From what I remember the Eldar gods were even eaten by Slannesh when he was born as a Warp-god.

And anyway, you can't use the fact that the Avatar has a special entry listing it as a daemon as an argument for consistency because it's a different situation in a different codex by a different author. Now, if ANY of the daemon units in the CSM had the entry "daemon" in there like the avatar, and others like Possessed did not, then you would have a bullet-proof argument. But that's not the case. The Greater Daemon, OBVIOUSLY a "daemon", has no special rule listed identical to what the avatar has. Obviously that is not the basis to use when looking at the stuff in the CSM codex to determine as to whether or not that count as daemons pragamtically as well as in-game.




Whether or not the stuff listed in the Daemonhunters codex should be considered daemons for in-game effects is not in question (sorry Dave). The grey area that I was trying to bring up is that, BECAUSE there is not a single explanation or special rule for the terminology "daemon" in the NEWER CSM codex, new units that were ADDED to the new codex before the old terminology list was written should be ADDED to the existing list based on common sense and the rules for the units and for consistency....ie, Chaos Sorcs with the 50+ points of gear as well as Obliterators.

THIS is what we should be discussing, not whether some guy can go "my daemonically possessed space marines aren't affected by things that affect daemons even though they are specifically listed as daemons and being affected in the main daemonhunter codex HURR HURR HURR".

I can and will prove that things listed in the Daemon Hunters codex as being demons when played against them are NOT demons when played against other armies.

Units specifically mentioned in other codices as being demons are obviously so: everything from the Demons book and the Avatar.

By specifically including the name Demon, and according to precedent established in all prior games workshop rules and faq's, as well as not being a general (@ss-hat, Summoned Greater Demons, Summoned Lesser Demons and the Demon Prince are demons for rules purposes. yes apparently the filter stops that word

All vehicles without a weapon skill are null and void anyway as they are hit on the movement speed of the vehicle and would be unaffected by the weapon (Reference Kharn the Betrayer).

All vehicles with a weapon skill that can also possibly be considered a demon in any way (certainly Soulgrinders and almost impossibly anything else) would have already been hit on 3's by the model, so I don't care if you want to hit on 2's with an epic str4 that cannot hurt the model.

Now, in line with GW's policy of excluding the use of all outdated rules that no longer apply to the current edition of the game, and most importantly the Daemonhunter specific rule of Demonic Infestation, the blanket approach of applying a Daemonhunter rule that specifically references no less than 3 scenarios that do not exist in the current game as cannon for the whole of 40k is at best overreaching.

The special rules listed in codex daemonhunters only apply to a codex daemonhunters army, or a game which includes said army. Stated specifically in the section you cite to "prove" what a demon is, GW has given us the restriction (emphasis mine): "Throughout THIS CODEX the word Daemon refers to the following units" (pg 20). It does not however read, throughout the game of Warhammer 40k the world Daemon applies to:......

Each army's special rules and codex specific listing only apply to that army. Simply because the Avatar is a daemon, and listed as such, does not mean he has a 5+ invulnerable, the Eternal warrior rule, and must begin the game off the table and deep strike onto the board starting in the first turn with half himself rounding up. Even then only getting the good half of himself on the roll of a 3+

As to Chaos lords, there is no longer such a thing as demonic stature, nor are there demonic gifts. The usage of a demon weapon, the possession of wings, or riding a demonic steed do not suddenly turn a model into a demon.

Obliterators are not demons. The back story, description or fluff concerning a model has no impact on its gameplay or rules other than their original creation or design.

Possessed Marines have the special rule: Daemonkin. This rule grants them a random rolled upgrade, but does not turn them into a demon for gameplay purposes (with the exception of games against Daemonhunters). Yes, their status as demon or not depends on their opponent. The rule they possess does not make them a demon in and of itself.

The rules of 40k function as an inclusive system. The tell what a player may do, and things not listed are not allowed based on their non-inclusion. Obliterators are not listed in the description in the Daemonhunters book, and therefore cannot be considered demons in gameplay terms, even against that army.

In the same way that a Blood Angel terminator may not take a 3++ save from his storm shield, a Space Wolf is not zealous or pious enough to consider a Possessed marine a demon. The only argument that need apply for the defining of demon within the rules of 40K is the specific listing of the unit as a demon within its own codex, or the codex against which it is playing. The Daemonhunter rules do not apply to Space Wolves, or Chaos Space Marines, or Chaos Daemons, or Tyranids, or anyone else.


There seems to be no debate regarding certain unit's distinction as demon or not demon from anyone other than you. For the same reason that questions some people deem super important and in need of an FAQ are not answered, this issue is not frequent enough to warrant further clarification, nor did it need be asked in the first place as the resolution was apparent within the given rules.

Not that it matters that much, but I believe the Rune Lord's force weapon allows them to "wound" daemons on a 2+, not "hit" them. So whether or not Soulgrinders or possessed vehicles are daemons or not is irrelevant because you don't "wound" models with a Armour Value.

So I what you are asking, Nick, is whether or not Obliterators, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, and the Avatar are daemons?

The easiest answer is: Unless the unit is called a daemon or has a special rule that makes it a daemon, it's NOT a daemon.

So...

Obliterators: Not a Daemon
Possessed CSM: Questionable; work it out with your opponent or tournament organizer ahead of time
Avatar: Daemon

And as far as Chaos Lords/Sorcerers go, there isn't anything in the current CSM codex saying that they become daemons if they take a daemonic mount/weapon or wings. Maybe you're thinking of the 3.5 codex?

Since when have oblits and possesed ever counted as Daemons?!

The oversight for CSM and their daemons is that, an oversight and a GW (duck) up on a potentially great codex, but oh well.

I'm fine with SGD, GD and DP's as daemons, because THATS WHAT THEY ARE!

but possesed and oblits is stretching it.

Angelofblades wrote:

Since when have oblits and possesed ever counted as Daemons?!

The oversight for CSM and their daemons is that, an oversight and a GW (duck) up on a potentially great codex, but oh well.

I'm fine with SGD, GD and DP's as daemons, because THATS WHAT THEY ARE!

but possesed and oblits is stretching it.

No one is making this up out of thin air. It says in the background of the units that they are demons or demonic. Possessed were listed as counting as daemons in the only cross-codex list on the subject that was ever listed. Many tournaments count as least Possessed as daemons in their FAQ (as well as anything with daemonic possession, though in fairness I should mention that they throw out the daemonic wargear).

I mean don't get me wrong- I think stuff like the Adepticon FAQ are arbitrary on a lot of this stuff and make a lot of decisions that are directly contrary to RAW for a piece of wargear (for "balance" or "clarification" purposes)...

...but this issue with daemons for the daemonhunter and space wolf armies in the current edition is more of an issue of something being outdated or totally left out in the first place when it should have been there (like avatar-style "daemon" special rules for greater daemons, possessed, ie whatever applicable in the CSM codex), rather than a direct contradiction of something that IS written in a codex (which they do in some other cases). That's why I put more worth on Adepticon's input on this issue than on some of their other ones:

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"DH.20Q.01 – Q: Exactly what models are currently considered a “daemon”?
A: Ignore the rule in the codex and instead consult the following guidelines [rules change]:
• All models from the Chaos Daemons codex (excluding Spawn created by ‘Boon of Mutation’).
• Chaos Space Marine Daemon Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, vehicles with the Daemonic Possession upgrade, Summoned Greater and Lesser Daemons.
• The Eldar Avatar.
• Imperial Armor Daemon Lords and Spined Chaos Beasts."

lol Russel XD

yoink

Happy birthday by the way Nate

happy birthday!

thanks guys