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 Building Competative Space Marine lists

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David
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PostSubject: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:29 pm

Some of us in the store tonight came to the conclusion that while the new space marine codex has a bunch of fun new toys, it is difficult to build army lists that can compete and win in the current 40k environment.

With this in mind I suggest we should use this thread to work out our ideas of what makes for a competitive marine list, and how to use it in games.

I believe that effective lists consist of units with specific purposes that specialize in the completion of their task. ie. If you want to have anti-tank in your army, you need an anti-tank unit, and that unit should focus only on killing tanks until all the tanks are dead. Confusing the purpose of a unit regularly results in good lists being ineffective.

The economics of 40k today are such that many other codices can field either vastly more models than Space Marines, or vastly superior models. With the need to bring troops as scoring units, it becomes difficult to balance killing and scoring. Every unit, including your troops choices, must be balanced around the principle of what amount of points can they eliminate vs. how many points they cost.

Lets divide our discussions here into two types: generic unnamed character lists, and named character combat tactics lists.

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Nick
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:41 pm

People not playing vanilla space marines (or dark angels) that do play against space marines have a massive advantage and huge chance to win before the round even starts regardless of how well either person plays. Yes, it's massively idiotic to know who will probably win before the round ever starts totally regardless of player skill but that's the state GW's poor codex writing has left the game in. Maybe in 5 years it will be different. I'll hold my breath to see whether the IG codex is as harshly priced as the SM codex, to see whether GW really is reversing direction from overpowering every codex to bringing them stricly in line. Either way SMs are in a bad spot because we missed out on 2-3 years of overpowering and are the first in a wave of cut-backs, or we are screwed as we are the only codex gimped hard so GW can sell the other armies better.

That isn't going to change and everything in the SM codex is so expensive (and usually limited to 10 models in a squad) that you can't make a top-tier list versus codexes with massively underpriced troops (orks) or specialist units (berserkers) or whatever. you can START to make SOME tricky stuff when you are playing at 2000+ points and taking a special character actually matters more.



I will participate, but at the end of the day, all you can do is acknowledge is that people playing anything other than non-vanilla marines (and maybe demonhunters and dark angels) should be mocked and feel humiliated if they ever lose to a SM player with their tournament lists from other codexes.

Or we can make it a house rule that a draw between a SM player and a non-SM/DA player counts as a win for the SM player!

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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:56 pm

Blood Angels suffer from being the most overpriced codex in the game right now, as well as having a severe lack of anti-tank ability. So I'll include them.

But things in the marine codex aren't too expensive, they're quite cheap, but compared to the previous marine codex the purposes of units have changed. Scout snipers now miss too much but got cheaper (though only barely cheaper than 10 tacts). Its almost impossible for them to kill their points cost back unless you just roll silly rends, and then anyone could be great.

Due to the changes to the codex, marines lost a fair bit of anti-tank power but picked up greater anti-infantry. With free flamers and a base heavy weapon (ML, HB, MM) the tactical marines must be tasked with a specific target to kill. In non-kill points missions a SM player can easily split the two squads up to take on two roles. Only Orks and CSM have superior troops to Tactical marines.

Due to the similar points cost of "un-upgraded" tactical marines and any type of scouts, I feel hard pressed to include BS3 WS3 4+ save models in my army unless I use their infiltrate to gain some bonus either by outflanking some CC scouts into inferior troops (IG / Tau) or by sneaking a ML into some side armor in the first turn.

The utility provided by marines with full grenades and the 2nd best base infantry gun in the game causes me to want to take 30+ tacts in all my lists. And starting at 510 points its not difficult to include them alongside other more killy units. Even with a power fist for protection and a rhino to get somewhere nice the unit is only 230 points. (690 for 3).

Rhinos are great for their points cost due to coming with smoke and being able to set up blocking walls to funnel enemy troops or protect men on foot for long enough to get close and shoot or assault. Razorbacks are super cheap for their use too, at only 40 points for a 6 man TLHB you could hide a melta gun in and rush forward.

Much like Big Red's marine gunline army, the use of terrain and deployment to create firing lanes and force the opponents vehicles close to your anti-tank guns allows a marine army to funnel in assault armies and slowly shoot them to death. And if any player wants to play a game of sit back and shoot with my marines, I'll take those odds or I'll push forward and assault their wimpy troops.

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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:08 pm

Nice write up so far. Reading this makes me wish I used more then two tac squads in my list for the league. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:11 pm

I considered bringing 60 tactical marines with 6 lascannons, pedro, and then some powerfists.

But I don't want to play a boring identical horde army just to win like some people Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:25 am

Nick wrote:
I considered bringing 60 tactical marines with 6 lascannons, pedro, and then some powerfists.

But I don't want to play a boring identical horde army just to win like some people Cool

Sounds like fun to me. I'm always running mechanized as anybody that has seen my army knows, therefore I think playing an all infantry army in power armor would be fun. Plus it fits to the fluff from the books, you don't read about the tanks to much, now only if I can take them as Hollywood Marines. Twisted Evil

Question on Tactics:

What works better for an anti-tank unit, Land speeders or Attack bikes?
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:57 pm

I could also make several dozen specialists lists. (I'm already doing that, but now there's a point) also on one of the other forums I go on, there's actually a VERY sweet list. Most of it's members think that only Guard and sallies could win against it.

I think Librarians are pretty much a basic requierment if your going to play a tourny worthy vanilla-marine list. Simply due to their versitality, and overall cheap price for the amount of stuff that can do.
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:05 am

What you bring depends on the points played.

For example:

Dakka preds should not be seen at 1850pts+. Just not at all that effective at 1850+pts imho. At 1500pts and below, they're great, especially at 85 pts a pop. Vindicators are a better choice though at 1850+ pts.

Another idea is using 10 man tac squads w/out a heavy weapon. Instead as 10 man tac squads w/ a special weapon and possibly a combi weapon/ PF sgt.

Sternguard rhino squads need more use. Especially with heavy flamers, in addition.

Also as a recent convert to typhoons, I believe a pair of these are necessary in competitive lists. What you're looking for is target saturation. If you have enough high risk targets for your opponent, he may just not have enough guns to deal with your army.
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:44 am

Unless you're me. I ALWAYS have enough guns. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:49 am

Erm... A Librarian in Terminator armor can single-handedly kill 'fex's, Landraiders, and make daemon armies trash.

For 100pts to 130pts. You should almost always have a librarian in your army, it's foolish not to.
As a second hq take a captain, do not take a chapter master they're too expensive and really all your paying for at that point is the orbital strike. Plus honor guard are stupidly expensive.


I will agree that sternguard should be used more, but I don't agree about the heavy-flamers, just use combi-flamers if at all do to the fact that you'll need the special rounds nine time out of ten, while the heavy-flamer can only be used against two, maybe three races.

Also see the list with the dakk/laser preds before you judge, you may be surprised.
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:34 pm

Prof.Brown wrote:
Erm... A Librarian in Terminator armor can single-handedly kill 'fex's, Landraiders, and make daemon armies trash.

You're going to have to explain how this happens. You're assuming that A) You can wound the Fex, and secondly the Fex' is out of synapse range? That's two huge assumptions. Also LR's don't make Daemon armies trash when your'e having to face screamers.


I will agree that sternguard should be used more, but I don't agree about the heavy-flamers, just use combi-flamers if at all do to the fact that you'll need the special rounds nine time out of ten, while the heavy-flamer can only be used against two, maybe three races.

Umm S5 AP4 is just about as deadly to anyone. As most often, SG are busting out of a Rhino doing drive by's. There is a difference between wounding on 3's and wounding on 4's as well as not needing to hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:42 pm

Str 5 ap 4 so what? That's only good most of the time against two specific races, and only for one, maybe two turns. It's much more effective, and practical, to give them combi-weapons and let them shoot the living daylights out of enemy infantry and monsters.
Then when they're almost in your face, you use combi-flamers and kill even more of em. After that you beat them in assault because they don't have the numbers needed to swamp you.

Also a Librarian can, and usually will, kill a carnifex by himself. You think I'm just going to wait until he's in assault range? No. No I'm not. I'm going to put him in terminator armor, vortex the carnifex, and then more likely than not, shoot him to death with the termi's he joined. After that I'll assault it.
Sure daemons have units that can mess with psykers, but that doesn't mean Librarians are useless. They're just less effective against specific armies, overall they're pretty kick-(butt).
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:13 am

Although a Librarian can certainly kill a Carnifex, I certainly wouldn't try to solo one unless I had no other option. If the Carnifex hasn't lost half or more of its wounds before it reaches melee range, then you're doing it wrong. Razz

And I too agree that if you aren't bringing specialist heavy weapons (lascannons or multimeltas) then there isn't any reason to take away a sternguard's bolter. Heavy flamers are great, but the loss of the special bullets is too much when for the same price I could have a combi-flamer and still keep my specialist ammo.
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:17 am

Sterngaurd are good specifically against mass-infantry armies, and monster armies. They're also pretty useful against GK armies seeing as most GK vehicles are too expensive for them to field normally.
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:14 am

My Sternguard haven't had any issues fighting SM's or CSM's or Eldar or Orks.

They're great agaisnt everybody, not just singular armies, stacking on wounds is still stacking on wounds and forcing armor saves. How do you kill marines? Force armor saves. The more you force, the more die.

Typically, 8 SG w/ combi melta, melta, Heavy flamer is:
12 bolter shots, 8 hits 7 wounds (hellfire rounds)
1 Melta shot that hits and wounds,
Flamer templates average 4 models, of which 3 wounds.

Total saves: 10 Armor saves 1 cover save. That's pretty good imho against a tac squad or CSM squad.
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PostSubject: Re: Building Competative Space Marine lists   Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:47 pm

Biker armies are tourny worthy as well, though I personally wouldn't use Kahn seeing as my bike's wont be bogged down.


I just posted it, take a look guys and tell me what you think.
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