Angry Marines Campaign. Campaign for Tantrum Prime

So I'm thinking about starting a campaign for the Club. Something to take a break in between league seasons.
I don't want there to be an entry fee, this is something totally for fun, not meant to be competitive. There will be army comp rules that I will set up, and ofcourse, am always looking for ideas to improve upon.

Here are the rules I was thinking of:

1. Order Vs Disorder (obviously)

2. Each army will be led by a single General. This will be determiend by popular vote, or whomever is left standing after an Angry Marine beer chug (applicable only if your of age obviously)

3. Generals will utilize the Forum messaging system to send orders to their subordinates. Just in case they don't happen to show up on the date moves are made.

4. Moves will be made once a week, every Saturday (or whatever day is most able for each general). Do note, that if you have been ordered to move by your general, and have been moved to engage into enemy territory and fight someone, make sure that you coordinate a game with them, just as in the League. Failure to do so, will be seen as insubordination, and your General has the right to keep you on defense and take you away from the front lines.

5. Each side will start out with a limited amount of points. These points are what you have to distribute amongst your Liutenants. So for example, both sides will start out evenly with 4000 pts. This means the General will have 4000pts to spend between himself and his subordinates. As the campaign progresses, there will be events and opportunities to increase this points cap. Starting points is dependent on number of players for each side. I'm thinking 4000-5000pts

6. Each side has a limited amount of Movement points on the campaign map. A single Liutenant may be moves a maximum of 2 spots, as long as those places are in your control. Alternatively, a movement point may be used to "dig in," this means that the selected map may be fortified. This gives the defending player an extra 500 pts to add to their army for as long as they are in that map. Each side will start with movement points equal to the number of subordinates on the side +2 (this is depending on the number of players). There will be events and opportunities to increase the movement cap.

7. Each Movement will have a theme. 4 themes in all, will dictate either scenario's, battle field conditions or something else.

In order:

"The Ground War."
"That's alot of Flak sir."
"From Dusk `till Dawn"
"And the horse you rode in on"

I'm thinking about having 5 players per side, including general

8. When choosing to attack an opposing territory, that is owned by the opposing player, the following apply:
A) You may never attack with more than 1750 pts worth of an army.
B) The attacker will not know how many points worth of the defender exists at that point
C) Lists must be turned in prior
D) Depending on the locale of the territory, special scenarios or missions may apply. Otherwise instructed, play as normal.

9. There will be special events and opportunites that will grant few select map bonuses. IE The ability to scout and figure the strength of the defending force.

10. If choosing to Defend a territory. No less than 750 pts worth of an army may be left.

11. Units may "Earn," campaign experience points to be spent on "Abilities." Roster sheets will be handed out to players, and should correspond to copies held by the GM(s). I can't recall if 5th ed has a campaign ability rules set, but if it doesn't we will use 4th ed modiefied for 5th. I will post these up after consideration.

12. The General and Lt's will have avatars on the battlefield. These are typicall your HQ selection. So if a Disorder Lt. plays Chaos for example, and chooses his Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, with wings and Lash to be his Avatar, so be it. Note, that if your Avatar dies, your entire army looses its Campaign experience. Don't get yourself killed. Players have the option of "Retreating," or "Surrendering," during a game so that they can make sure they live through a fight. I haven't yet decided what the consequences of such actions will be.

13. The League FAQ that Dave's working up will be implemented for the Campaign.

I'm going to go through and look for a decent map to play on, as well as check up campaign experience and abilities that people can earn. I'm also going to see about campaign map related abilities.

If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to share.

Campaign Map Abilities.

These abilities are only extended to Generals. They use these abilities as they see fit. Each General will buy an ability with movement points. The number indicates the number of movement points you spend for that ability

1. Forced March: General may move a single subordinate within 2 territory spots of their current location. They must move within territories owned. Subordinate moved may be moved again. This extra movement is in addition to the current movement points owned.

2. Scouts: On a D6 roll of 4+, your scouts have successfully gauged the strength of the enemy in the area. You will be notified of the amount of points in that area. Cannot be used more than once per map movement phase.

3. Jamming: On a D6 roll of 5+, General may negate opponent's "Scouts," or "Request Backup."

4. "Request Backup": General has received advance warning of impending attack. May reinforce a single invaded territory with an extra 250 pts.

5. General's Favor: Once per map movement phase, the General may bestow his favor on a subordinate. Subordinate gains double campaign exp for his army if victorious. If subordinate is defeated, General looses this ability, and will have to roll to gain it again. Re-roll if you already have this.

6. Scorch and Burn: The General may command Subordinates to Scorch and Burn. If the Subordinate looses and gives up territory, the opposing General, does not earn his share of experience for winning.

Awesome! I'll be in for sure.

Aye, sounds like a good way to get a weekly fix of die-rollin'

So are you talking about having something like the mighty empires campaign map, but for 40K? I have a set if we want to use that. I just need to finish painting 'em.

Nate

spacewolflars wrote:

Aye, sounds like a good way to get a weekly fix of die-rollin'

So are you talking about having something like the mighty empires campaign map, but for 40K? I have a set if we want to use that. I just need to finish painting 'em.

Nate

Yeah, if I don't happen to come up with a decent map by that time, we can definately use that. I think that would be a great idea.

Posting Rules now:

Campaign Battle Honors. These are earned for every unit once they reach a certain amount of experience points (TBD). Units earn the right to roll a D6 and consult the chart below. If a unit rolls for an ability it already has, it re-rolls.

Infantry, MC's, bikes, jet-bikes and Cavalry:

1. Street Fighters: Unit may re-roll difficult or dangerous terrain tests.
2. Grizzled Veterans: Unit may force opponents to re-roll successful To Hit rolls in close combat against them
3. Seasoned Campaigner: May attempt to rally, even if below half. This cannot happen more than once per game.
4. Tank Killers: Unit gains Tank Hunters
5. Natural Survivors: Unit may force opponents to re-roll successful To Wound rolls in both close combat and shooting.
6. Rapid Deployment: If held in reserve, a unit may re-roll the reserve roll.

Vehicles:
1. Terrifying: Units tank shocked by a vehicle with this abiltiy, suffer a -2 penalty to Ld. Walkers who win close combat stack a -2 Ld modifier to the opponent.
2. Hardened Crew: Force opponent to Re-roll Glancing Result
3. Reinforced Armor: Force opponent to re-roll Penetrating Result.
4. Skilled Gunnery: Once per game, unit may roll missed to hits in shooting phase.
5. Skiller Pilot: Re-roll Dangerous terrain tests
6. Tank Killers: Unit gains Tank Hunters

Experience Points:

This is how units (including avatars) earn experience points:

1) Fighting: Each unit earns 150 Experience points for fighting (win or lose).
2) Winning: Each unit earns 200 experience points for winning as long as the unit is alive at the end of the battle.
3) Losing: Each unit earns 50 Experience points for losing.
4) Killed an enemy unit: Units earn 100 Experience points for wiping out enemy units completely in either shooting or close combat.
5) Acting beyond the call of duty: Your chosen MVP earns 150 bonus Experience points.
6) Achieving Mission Objective: Units that achieve mission objective for you, earn 100 Experience points.
7) Broke an enemy in Assault: For breaking an enemy in assault, the unit earns 100 Experience points. The unit can earn a bonus 50 Experience points if they manage to sweep the enemy unit.

This is how units (including avatars) loose experience points:

1) Upkeep:
A) For infantry, jump/ jet infantry, cavalry and bike/ jet bike units, you loose double the points cost of the model in Experience points for every member of the squad you replace. IE An ork boys unit has to replace 22 members, it would cost them 264 Experience points.

B) You loose Experience points equal to the cost for every piece of wargear replaced within the unit as well. For Monstrous Creatures, you loose 100 Experience points for every wounds replaced to bring the model back to full wounds.

C) Vehicles loose 100 Experience points for every piece of the vehicle they need to repair, IE destroyed weapons, immobilized.

2) Replacement: If a unit was entirely wiped out, you loose experience points equal to the points cost of the unit. So a 300 point unit, will cost you 300 experience points.

Total Experience is calculated by Experienced lost subtracted from Experience earned.

Leveling up: Every time a unit levels up, it get's to consult the Battle Honors table. The unit get's to pick it's first Battle Honor. Any consecutive Battle Honors are rolled for

Level Caps: Each unit has a level cap. This is the maximum amount of levels it can reach.

HQ: Units that are HQ and NOT your avatar, can reach a maximum level of 4.
Elites: All units that count as Elites, can reach a maximum level of 3.
Troops: All units that count as troops choice, can reach a maximum level of 1.
Fast Attack: Fast Attack units can reach a maximum level of 3.
Heavy Support: Heavy Support units can reach a maximum level of 2.

Experience points Levels:

Level 1: 1150 Experience points
Level 2: 1750 Experience points
Level 3: 2850 Experience points
Level 4: 4250 Experience points

This looks like an awesome idea and I would be more than happy to participate.

Hopefully I wont be working too much......

oh hell yeah, im in.

I'm confused on the experience system, so let me put out an example scenario:

So I've got a 30-man unit of Ork Boyz that includes all the usual upgrades (Nob, Klaw, Boss-pole, etc). This unit during the course of a battle manages to somehow not get slaughtered on its way across the field of battle and ends up killing two enemy units in assault, one via massacre and one via sweeping advance. The unit also consolidated onto an objective, holding it. We win the battle but the unit only has the Nob and 7 other Boyz left.

So is the XP worked out as such?

+150 for being on the table at the end of the fight
+300 for winning
+100 for wiping out 2 enemy units
+100 for achieving a mission objective
+200 for breaking 2 enemy units in assault
+50 for sweeping an enemy unit in assault
+150 for being my team's MVP

- 2200 for "upkeep" (replacing 22 Boyz before the next fight)

Total gain: - 1150 XP




Soo... my rather lucky MVP unit of Ork Boyz LOOSES 1150 XP for doing a kick-(butt) job and winning the fight for me?

That makes absolutely no sense...

Perhaps upkeep should be -X XP per model replaced where X is the points cost of the model? So a basic Ork Boy would be 6XP to replace, an Ork Boy w/ a Big Shoota would be 11XP, a Nob Biker with a Power Klaw would be 75XP, a basic Space Marine would be 16XP, and a Space Marine Sgt w/ a Power Fist would be 51XP (just giving examples).

Hrmm, good call Colby, I hadn't taken into account the larger units. Revising.

EDIT: Updated the Experience calculations

I've gone ahead and written out skill tables that Avatars (Generals and Lieutenats) can roll on. Depending on the type of character you choose, will limit your access to certain skill tables.

Agility:
1. Hit & Run - confers to unit
2. Dodge - Opposing models suffer -1 to hit in close combat against model
3. Leap - Model gains D3" to charge range. Model only
4. Fleet - Confers to all friendly units within 6".
5. Disarm - At the beginning of each round of combat, before blows are struck, nominate one model, on a 4+ that model looses any and all its weapons for that close combat round. It will count as if it has nothing in either hand. For example, a Thunder hammer/ Storm shield terminator is nominated. It looses it Thamemr and S.Shield for one turn of combat and reverts to a 5+ invul save and base attacks.
6. Second Wind - Re-roll RUN roll - Model Only

Combat:
1. Preferred Enemy - Confers to all friendly units within 12"
2. Parry - 1A for enemy models in base to base contact
3. Haymaker - rolls of 6 To Wound in close combat count as Instant Death
4. Defensive Stance - Only one model per unit in close combat may attack a model with this skill.
5. Assault Stance - +1A for every model in btb
6. Counter-Attack - confers to unit.

Strength:
1. Berserk Charge - Model Gains additional D3 attacks on charge.
2. Staggering Blow - models wounded, but not killed in close combat, by a model with this skill, strike at I1 in the next combat phase.
3. Furious Charge - confers to unit.
4. Deathstrike - A model with this skill suffers -1A, but any wounds caused, count as Instant Death, after saves.
5. Eternal Warrior - Model only
6. Feel No Pain - model only

Tech:
1. Medi-packs - Once per player turn, a friendly model within 6" of a model with medi-packs may ignore a failed save as long as the bearer is not Falling Back, in close combat, or Pinned. It may not be used against Instant Death or a close combat attack that ignores armor saves.
2. Medic - Model gains Feel No Pain and grants it to the unit.
3. Refractor Pack - A model with this can Re-roll its own failed Invulnerable saves.
4. Armorer - The model's armor save is improved by +1, to a maximum of 2+.
5. Triangulator - Units in the Avatar's army, Deep Striking do not scatter, as long as the chosen point is visible to the Avatar.
6. Stealth field: Any one wishing to shoot at a unit with a model who has this ability, rolls for Night Fight.

Shooting:
1. Marksman - A model with this skill may target specific models. Model only.
2. Quick Draw - Model may fire one weapon, twice. May not charge the turn it does this.
3. Tank Hunter - Model only
4. Relentless - Model only
5. Sharpshooter - Model's shooting attacks ignore cover saves. - Model only
6. Golden Gun - Any roll To Wound of a 6 in the shooting phase, count as Instant Death. - Model Only

Stealth:
1. Move Through Cover - confers to unit.
2. Stealth - confers to unit.
3. Scouts - confers to unit.
4. Infiltrate - confers to unit.
5. Gotcha! - A model with this skill may re-roll the I dice for sweeping advance.
6. Surprise! - Any army led by a model with this skill, may start rolling reserves on Turn 1.

Tactics:
1. Bolster Defenses
2. Forced March: Avatar may re-deply D3 units before the game starts.
3. Hold the Line!: Freindly units within 12" may not be pinned are automatically pass all Morale checks.
4. Tank Commander: Freindly vehicles within 12" of the Avatar, ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results. This cannot happen more than once per turn.
5. Firing Drill: Units within 12" of the Avatar may re-roll missed To Hits in shooting
6. Counter Terrorism: No infiltrating units may setup within 12" of the Avatar, even if they are out of LoS. No Deep Striking units may come in within 12" of Avatar and the unit he is in.

These look good so far. Have you looked at the WHFB: Mighty Empires "Leveling Up" system for campaigns? Might give you some more ideas for avatar skills.

Also, I think you need to make it clearer which abilities affect only the model and which also affect the unit the model is with. for example, does "Fleet" and "Second Wind" affect the unit the avatar is with as well?

Also, also: Avatars can't use a "Special Character" as a base, right? I mean that our avatars will have to be made using a "standard" HQ choice (SM Captain/Ork Warboss/Eldar Farseer/IG Company Commander/etc)? I would expect that we shouldn't see any Lysanders, H'Stans, or Thrakas wandering about getting even more special rules and abilities.


EDIT: When were we planning on starting this up? I vote that we wait til at least mid-May so that IG players don't have to worry about a codex swap mid-campaign. Plus that gives us plenty of time to polish up the campaign rules, story, and the campaign map (Mighty Empires, again, makes this process easier).

Also, rumor has it that GW will be releasing a Mighty Empires-esque expansion for WH40k later this year. Perhaps tied into Planet Strike...

I will be posting army composition rules. I will enforce strict army composition, as this is meant purely for freindly and fun games, meaning no competitive lists. I haven't fully decided what the composition rules will be, but oen thing is for certain, no Special Characters, no Exceptions. This goes from Calgar to the Deciever, to any of the named Daemons in the Daemon codex. AFAIK, the only named model to be used is the Avatar out of the Eldar codex. Players are more than welcome to use the models in game, but not their rules, so Denver could use the Helbrect model as his Avatar, but not use Helbrecht's rules.

I have an idea circulating in my head that if I let Special Characters in, They will NOT gain experience, and thus cannot roll on table.


We will all be using generic HQ choices, that will have a limit to the amount of points you can buy gear for them. I will be posting full rules for Avatars shortly.

I'm using Mordeheim/ Necromunda as a basis for the leveling system as those are better, and time proven systems that work.

Models & Skill Trees:

The following is the description as to what skill trees are available to what Avatars.

Lieutenants get to pick the first skill out of a chosen Skill Tree. For subsequent one, they have to roll. A second Skill Tree cannot be unlocked until 3 Skills have been achieved from a single Skill Tree.

Generals always get to choose their skills.

Space Marines:
Master: Combat, Strength, Shooting, Tactics
Captain: Agility, Combat, Stealth, Tactics
Chaplain: Combat, Agility
Librarian: Agility, Combat, Strength
Master of the Forge: Tech, Shooting, Combat

Chaos Marines:
Daemon Prince: Agility, Combat, Strength.
Chaos Lord: Agility, Combat, Strength, Shooting, Tactics.
Sorceror: Agility, Combat, Shooting, Stealth

Blood Angels:
Captain: Agility, Combat, Strength, Tactics.
Librarian: Agility, Combat, Stealth.
Chaplain: Combat, Strength, Tech.

Orks:
Warboss: Combat, Strength, Stealth.
Wierdboy: Combat, Shooting.
Big Mek: Techno, Shooting.

Black Templars:
Marshall: Combat, Strength, Tech.
Castellan: Combat, Shooting, Tactics
Chaplain: Agility, Combat.
Emperor's Champion: Agility, Combat, Strength.

Dark Angels:
Captain: Combat, Strength, Shooting, Tactics.
Interrogator- Chaplain: Combat, Strength, Tactics.
Chaplain: Combat.
Librarian: Agility, Combat, Techno.

Tyranids:
Broodlord: Agility, combat, Strength, Stealth
Hive Tyrant: Combat, Strength, shooting, Tactics.

Necrons:
Lords: Combat, Strength, Techno, Shooting, Tactics.

Space Wolves:
Wold Lord: Combat, Strength, Tactics
Battleleader: Strength, Stealth, Agility
Rune Priest: Combat, Shooting
Wolf Priest: Agility, Stealth.

Eldar:
Farseer: Agility, Shooting, Stealth, Tactics.
Autarch: Combat, Strength, Techno, Tactics.
Avatar: Agility, Combat, Strength

Tau:
Shas'O: Techno, Stealth, Tactics.
Shas' El: Combat, Techno, Shooting, Tactics.

SoB:
Canoness: Agility, Combat, Shooting
Palantine: Combat, Stealth
Inquisitor Lord: Combat, Shooting, Tech, Tactics.

IG:
Company Commander: Tactics, Shooting, Stealth
Commissar Lord: Combat, Strength, Agility
Primaris Psyker: Tech, Shooting, Combat

Missing, GK and Daemons. What do you guys think?

Note: Took out Ven Dread on Sw, sorry Nate it was causing too many issues for the rest of the rules.

Couple of suggestions:

- All avatars (except for Chaos avatars; see below) get 3 skill trees and they can freely pick which of the three trees they get their FIRST bonus from. After that they may freely roll in the same tree for future bonuses. If they choose to pick a second skill tree then they must roll a D6 and on a 4+ they get to pick the 2nd tree of their choosing, but otherwise they have to stick with the same tree. If an avatar has "unlocked" 2 different trees and they gain access to yet another bonus then they must roll to see which tree they get to pick their next bonus from. Avatars cannot choose to go for a 3rd tree.

- The exception to all of this is Chaos Daemon Princes, Lords and Sorcerers, which roll TWO dice every single time they gain access to a bonus. The first dice (D3 for Daemons and Sorcerers, D6 for Lords) they roll determines the tree and the second determines the tree-specific bonus. Chaos is fickle like that...

Suggestions in red:

Quote :

Space Marines:
Chapter Master: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Captain: Combat, Strength, Shooting (Should be the same as Chapter Master)
Chaplain: Agility, Combat, Strength
Librarian: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Master of the Forge: Strength, Tech, Shooting

Chaos Marines:
Daemon Prince: Agility, Combat, Strength
Chaos Lord: Agility, Combat, Strength, Tech, Shooting, Stealth (Makes them more Chaotic and gives you a reason to pick a Lord over a Sorcerer)
Sorcerer: Agility, Combat, Shooting

Blood Angels:
Captain: Agility, Combat, Strength
Librarian: Agility, Combat, Strength (Let's face it, BA is all-out assault)
Chaplain: Agility, Combat, Strength (Let's face it, BA is all-out assault)

(Also, given the nature of their codex, I don't think ANYONE will choose to play as Blood Angels if they can't use the Special Characters.)

Orks:
Warboss: Combat, Strength, Stealth
Wierdboy: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Big Mek: Strength, Tech, Shooting
Mad Dok: Agility, Combat. (Mad Dok is a Special Character)

Black Templars:
Marshall: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Castellan: Combat, Strength, Shooting (See: SM Captain)
Chaplain: Agility, Combat, Strength
Emperor's Champion: Agility, Combat, Strength

Dark Angels:
Captain: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Interrogator- Chaplain: Agility, Combat, Strength
Chaplain: Agility, Combat, Strength
Librarian: Combat, Strength, Shooting

Tyranids:
Broodlord: Agility, Combat, Stealth
Hive Tyrant: Combat, Strength, Shooting

Necrons:
Lords: Combat, Tech, Shooting

Space Wolves:
Ven. Dread: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Wolf Lord: Agility, Combat, Strength
Battleleader: Agility, Combat, Strength
Rune Priest: Combat, Strength, Tech
Wolf Priest: Combat, Strength, Tech

Eldar:
Farseer: Agility, Tech, Shooting
Autarch: Agility, Combat, Stealth
Avatar: Agility, Combat, Strength

Tau:
Shas'O: Tech, Shooting, Stealth
Shas' El: Tech, Shooting, Stealth

In general I'm liking how this is shaping up. The biggest problem that I see is that you have a system where You have units that are gaining in strength over time, yet you essentially get to re-write an army list every time, or add to it, etc...

I would suggest that everyone who plays brings a list of units, say up to 1000 to 1500 points worth. Then through out the campaign the armies are going to get stronger or weaker, just by virtue of the rules that you have worked up for leveling up. That way rather than having to make a bunch of different lists, you just change your list as you go along. This would keep it more in line with the necromunda/mordheim style (ok, I don't know about necromunda at all, but that's how I remember mordheim being). So rather than have a bonus of 500 points to build an army list with you get a certain number of bunkers/fortifications/trenches/minefields when you dig in to defend rather than moving.

Another element that I remember from mordheim that I think worked really well was that you didn't treat your casualties as necessarily dead, just out-of-action. So depending on how they were killed you may get a chance to get your doodz back before having to pay for them. Say you have a guy who got a las-cannon to the face, well, there really isn't much you can do for him beyond going through his pockets and looking for spare change. But, if someone got taken out by a grot-blasta, he may have just been too doubled over in sheer hysterics to continue.

To represent this after the battle anyone who was killed by a double toughness, AP 1 or 2 weapon, would be dead, deead deadski. Anyone else could make a base toughness save (possibly one per base wound) to see if they are going to make it to the next battle. Those who don't are also dead and would have to be bought back with victory points earned through playing. Perhaps if enough points were earned you could add a new unit entirely, rather than re-inforcing, or it might be feasible to promote a unit of troops to elite after they have leveled up to their max, considering of course that they pay lots of points to do so, i.e. a tac squad to a sterngaurd squad or a unit of boyz to be lootaz

I'd agree with the thing about the special characters. With this campaign you would essentially be making your own special characters.

I normally hate having to resort to chop-quote responses, but since we're talking about specific issues here I guess I'll have to...

Quote :

Chaos may be fickle, but these skills represent the individual accomplishments of the Avatar. It has nothing to do with the gifts of the gods. That aspect is all represented (pitifully) in the codex. I don't believe it should have any bearing in the skills a particualr warrior chooses to learn.

Okay, fare enough. Just thought it might be cool to give Chaos something unique (like the Eye of the Gods table in Fantasy).

Quote :

Here's my reasoning for my initial picks. Masters are more prominent members of the SM heirarchy, because of this, I don't think they should have access to all the same skills as the Captains. In addition, there are alot of the skills written in the trees, so that a player could potentially, "create," Shrike, or at least a variant of. Since Shrike is a Captain level character, I had put such, in the Captain slot.

I'm limiting the "Strength," category as much as I can to at the most 2 members per Racial Force. It's one of the best Skill trees out of the bunch. I don't want to end up seeing everyone with Eternal Warrior and FnP. Remember that there are other bonuses to not takign a master, such as points cost, wargear selections, and built in rules. A Chaplain, doesn't need "Combat," skills when he comes with Litanies of Hate. My decisions, took into account story and the inbuilt rules and options that some of the characters come with

I can understand your want to limit the "Strength" skill tree, but here's the deal: If you have to limit a tree, then that tree is too strong. There are small changes you can do to balance the trees. For example: Instead of Eternal Warrior, the first time (per game) that the avatar suffers Instant Death, he/she takes a single wound instead (capital letters to include the effects of a Force Weapon).

And why do we want to balance the trees? So that every HQ type has exactly 3 trees to pick from, so that everything is fair and simple to understand. Plus it allows for more diversity.

Now about Chapter Masters and Captains. This I disagree on. As far as the Space Marine codex (and the other codices that "upgradable stat-line HQs", like Black Templar and Dark Angels) is concerned, a Chapter Master is just a higher ranking Captain (with access to Orbital Bombardment). Anything a Captain knows, a Chapter Master should know, so in keeping with the idea that every avatar MUST have 3 tree options, the Chapter Master and the Captain must have the same 3 trees.

Quote :

The reason you pick a sorceror over a Lord is simple. Psychic powers.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. For 10 more points a Chaos Sorcerer is a Chaos Lord with a Force Weapon and access to Psychic Powers. Who WOULDN'T rather take a Sorcerer over a Lord? I was hoping that the random access to all skill trees would entice people to actually make a Lord, rather than always picking between a Sorc or a Daemon. Of course, we could also change things up by giving the Lord a different set of skill trees to pick from, which is what you originally did. How about:

Lord: Combat, Strength, Stealth
Sorc: Combat, Tech, Shooting

Quote :

Sure BA are assault oriented, but not stupid. DA are shooty, but doesn't mean the dislike close combat. The specific codex's already reflect the nature of the chapter's, the skills again are the individula's choice. Just because a Librarian hails from the Blood Angel's chapter, doesn't mean he isn't a bookworm.

Maybe I went a bit over the top here, but if you look at the BA non-special-character HQs... they all pretty much suck in comparison and are only good if kitted out with cheap CQC gear. I mean, NOTHING can really compare with the Awesome-Sauce that is Mephiston, and Corbulo is so useful that any BAngels veteran would rather not play than make an army that doesn't include him. And the fact of the matter is that Blood Angel Librarians really do only have assault-based Psychic Powers. Specifically they get an ability that gives them +D3 attacks and the ability to move like Jump Infantry...

But to liven things up a bit, how about:

Blood Angels:
Captain: Combat, Strength, Shooting
Librarian: Agility, Combat, Stealth (Stealth represent Librarian's ability to close with the enemy quickly and psychically orchestrate incoming reserves)
Chaplain: Combat, Strength, Tech (Tech makes them a "second rate" Corbulo if you roll good)

Quote :

I'm not too sure about wierdboys with "Strength" characteristic, they already are powered with psychic powers...it may be too much.

Weirdboyz Psychic powers are (rolling a D6 every turn) 1) Kill your own unit 2) Shooty power 3) Shootier Power 4) +1 attack to all models in unit 5) Teleport 6) Free Waaagh.

Thus Weirdboyz need assaulty and shooty skills. Besides, Agility, Tech, and Stealth do NOTHING for Weirdboyz. They should never not be in a squad, so move of Agility is negated, they don't have armour or invulnerable saves, so 2 of the 6 Tech bonuses are wasted (and they'd never be technical anyhow), and they're just about the least stealthy thing in the Ork codex.

Really, every Ork HQ needs access to Strength. It's the Orkiest skill tree.

Quote :

Another element that I remember from mordheim that I think worked really well was that you didn't treat your casualties as necessarily dead, just out-of-action. So depending on how they were killed you may get a chance to get your doodz back before having to pay for them. Say you have a guy who got a las-cannon to the face, well, there really isn't much you can do for him beyond going through his pockets and looking for spare change. But, if someone got taken out by a grot-blasta, he may have just been too doubled over in sheer hysterics to continue.

To represent this after the battle anyone who was killed by a double toughness, AP 1 or 2 weapon, would be dead, deead deadski. Anyone else could make a base toughness save (possibly one per base wound) to see if they are going to make it to the next battle. Those who don't are also dead and would have to be bought back with victory points earned through playing.

THIS.

Also, as far as the "death" of our Avatars is concerned, see Necromunda's section on death where you'd roll a two D6's and consult a table. Chances are, our avatars AREN'T going to make through the campaign without dying at least once. It just happens, even if your opponent isn't specifically trying to assassinate them. We shouldn't lose everything if our avatar dies, especially since he didn't even necessarily "die". He may have just passed out or tried to flee the battle.

I think a good work around between straight up "if your avatar dies, you loose all of your campaign XP" and the elaborate MIA/KIA scenarios in Necromunda would be to come up with a simpler 2D6 table.

For example: 2 = "Game Over, Please Insert Credits to Continue" and 12 = "The bullet hit my lucky cigarette lighter!"

AKA on a 2 your avatar kicks the bucket and you loose all of your campaign XP
... on a 7 your avatar was severely wounded but'll manage to make it through eventually; he looses an amount of XP (from the XP +/- bullet points) and can't fight in the next battle (players will need 2nd in commands)
... on a 12 your avatar somehow managed to escape any serious wounds (even though it looked like he died); he doesn't take any XP loss from loosing wounds (but also doesn't count as "being on the table at the end of fight" for XP purposes) and can fight in the next battle

In-between values can be worked out similar to the Necromunda rules, where-in the degree of good/bad varies (and avatars can lose bonuses/stats to represent grievous injuries).

Guys, your poitns are valid and I am aware. Remember the rules are incomplete. I'm posting ections that I've deemed worthy of posting for review. I've got an entire ringed notebook taht's got rule scribbled all over it, rule that I havent posted yet, such as Death/Injury table for avatars. Such as the Experience and Level Caps for Avatars, such as Ransom, such as Movement Points.

Rest assured guy's I know there are alot of holes in the posted rules, I've adressed many if not all fo them in my head/notebook. It has just to be posted. I don't mind if you guys want to bring it to my attention, but for the most part, I'd like to know your opinions on the posted rules. Or if you have questions on the posted rules.

Alot of the rules I've yet to post need alot of tweaking. Especially the Death/Injury table, which needs alot of attention. Because it has the potential to add alot of character to your avatars and it has the potential to be gay. Something i'm trying to avoid.

Avatars Part II:

Whenever an Avatar levels up, it will first roll a D6 on the following table:

1. New Skill

2. Characteristic Increase:
Roll again:
1-3 = +1 Strength; 4-6 = +1 Attacks.

3. Characteristic Increase:
Roll again:
1-3 = +1 WS; 4-6 = +1 BS.

4. Characteristic Increase.
Roll again:
1-3 = +1 Initiative; 4-6 = +1 Leadership.

5. Characteristic Increase. Roll again:
1-3 = +1 Wounds; 4-6 = +1 Toughness

6. New Skill.

Note: Characteristics caps will be in effect. We will NOT be having a Toughness 10 Eldar Farseer. NO.

Avatar Experience Levels:

Avatars level up on a different Experience set

Level 1: 1000 Exp
Level 2: 1500 Exp
Level 3: 2500 Exp
Level 4: 4000 Exp
Level 5: 6000 Exp
Level 6: 8500 Exp
Level 7: 11,500 Exp
Level 8: 15,000 Exp
Level 9: 19,000 Exp
Level 10: 23,500 Exp

Lieutenants start at Level 2, while Generals start at Level 3.


Death and Injury:

If your Avatar is "knocked out," at the end of a game. Meaning that it has lost all it's remaining wounds, roll a D6 and consult the chart below. If your Avatar has lost up to or over half of its wounds, Immediately roll for Minor Injury.

Note: That if you roll "Serious Injury," re-roll any "Full Recovery," results you get.

1: Dead - Game over, start from scratch. The General has to pay in Experience points, Army Points and Movement Points, up to half of what you were contributing to the army at the time of death to resurrect you. If the General does so, you start with that amount of Experience points, otherwise, the General can pay a minimum of your starting cost, which would mean that you start back at level 2.

2 - 4: Minor Injury - Lasts until the end of the next battle.

5 - 6: Major Injury - Permanent injury.

To find out what happens to Avatars who go out of action roll two dice and consult the Injuries chart. The first dice roll represents ‘tens’ and the second ‘units’ so a roll of 1 and 5 is 15, a roll of 3 and 6 is 36, and so on. This type of dice roll is referred to as a D66 roll.

11-21: MULTIPLE INJURIES: The Avatar is not dead but has suffered many serious wounds. Roll a further D6 times on this chart. Re-roll any ‘Multiple Injuries’ and ‘Full Recovery’ results.

22: CHEST WOUND: The Avatar has been badly wounded in the chest. He recovers but is weakened by the injury and his Toughness characteristic is reduced by -1.

23: SHOULDER WOUND: The Avatar has smashed a shoulder. He recovers from his injuries but he can no longer move quickly. The Avatar suffers -1 attack.

24: ARM WOUND: The Avatar has smashed one arm. Although he recovers from his injury his strength is reduced as a result. The fighter’s Strength characteristic is reduced by -1.

25: HEAD WOUND: A serious head injury leaves the fighter somewhat unhinged. The Avatar suffers from "Crazed."

26: BLINDED IN ONE EYE: The Avatar survives but loses the sight of one eye. Randomly determine which eye. A character with only one eye has his Ballistic Skill reduced by -1. This can only happen once. Re-roll if you already have this result and it is a Serious Injury.

31: PARTIALLY DEAFENED: The Avatar survives but is extremely nervous and jumpy as a result of the traumatic injuries he has suffered. His Initiative characteristic is reduced by -1.

32: SHELL SHOCKED: The Avatar's Initiative characteristic is reduced by -1.

33: HAND INJURY: The Avatar’s Weapon Skill is reduced by -1.

34-36: OLD BATTLE WOUND: The Avatar recovers but his old wound sometimes affects his health. Roll a D6 before each game. On the roll of a 1 the fighter’s old wound is playing up and he is unable to take part in the forthcoming battle.

41-46: FULL RECOVERY: The Avatar has been knocked unconscious or suffers a mildly incapacitating wound from which he makes a full
recovery.

51-63: BITTER ENMITY: Although he makes a full physical recovery, the Avatar has been psychologically scarred by his experiences. He develops a bitter enmity for the Unit that was responsible for his injury. From now on, the fighter may suffer Rage against the following (roll a D6).

1-3 The individual enemy unit who inflicted the injury (if unknown, the Enemy Avatar).
4-6 The Avatar of the army who inflicted the injury.

At the beginning of each turn, the Avatar must pass a Leadership test. If the test is passed, the Avatar acts as normal, if failed, he succumbs to his Rage. The number of turns is subtracted from the Avatar's Leadership for the purposes of this test. Thus, the Avatar suffers a -1Ld modifier on turn one, for the purposes of this test, -2Ld modifier on turn 2 and so on.

If the Avatar manages to destroy the target unit or "knock out," the target avatar and survives the battle, he screams in utter vindication and gains D3 X 100 experience points.

64: HORRIBLE SCARS: Enemy units within 6" of an Avatar with Horrible Scars suffer -1 Ld. Fearless units are not affected by this.

65: IMPRESSIVE SCARS: The Avatar recovers and is left with impressive scars as testament to his experience. The Avatar may re-roll "Seize the Initiative."

66: SURVIVES AGAINST THE ODDS: The Avatar regains consciousness alone in the darkness, given up for dead by his companions and overlooked by his enemies. Despite his injuries he makes his way back home. He recovers fully and his uncanny survival earns him an additional D6 x 100 Experience points.

Update:

Made some changes to the Shooting and Agility Skill Trees.

Also took out SW Ven dread from Avatar list.

Quote :

Also took out SW Ven dread from Avatar list.

Why? It's a legitimate non-Special Space Wolves HQ choice.

Not that it matters, I don't think anyone but Nate plays SWolves and unless I'm mistaken he doesn't use the Dread HQ...

BTW - I thought you were Angelo, Angelofblades, but he has an account under a different name. Who are you at the store?

Lawl...Colby, had you no idea who you were posting to?

It's Jay....

I took out the ven dread because it was causing conflict with alot of the rules and skills. For example, how doesn FnP affect a dreadnought? So I just took it out.

Characteristics Caps:

The following is the maximum allowed achievable changes to one's characteristics;

Space Marines (All Imperials: Codex and Non-Codex)
WS: 7
BS: 6
S: 5
T: 5
I: 6
A: 5
W: 5
Ld: 10

Chaos:
WS: 8
BS: 6
S: 6
T: 5
I: 6
A: 6
W: 5
Ld: 10

Note: Daemon Princes do not gain attribute increases. They immediately go to the skills table.

Humans (Non-space Marines eg Guard, SoB, etc)
WS: 5
BS: 5
S: 4
T: 4
I: 5
A: 4
W: 3
Ld: 10

Tyranids: Tyranids do not gain attribute increases, they immediate go to the skill table

Tau:
WS: 5
BS: 7
S: 5
T: 5
I: 4
A: 4
W: 4
Ld: 10

Orks:
WS: 8
BS: 2
S: 7
T: 6
I: 4
A: 6
W: 5
Ld: 10

Eldar:
WS: 9
BS: 7
S: 4
T: 4
I: 8
A: 6
W: 4
Ld: 10

Necrons:
WS: 5
BS: 6
S: 6
T: 5
I: 4
A: 4
W: 5
Ld: 10

Note: Re-roll all maxed attributes until you've maxed them all out. Once all maxed out, go immediately to skill tables.

I can't speak for the other "races", but I think the Ork max attributes need a little tweaking. Suggestions in Red:

Orks:
WS: 8
BS: 3 (What? Super-awesome leader Orkz can't EVER get better at shooting?)
S: 7
T: 6
I: 4 (Ork Warbosses are I4 base. Weirdboyz and Big Mekz start at 3 and should be able to at least match a Warboss given enough experience)
A: 6
W: 5 (Actually, I think the max for any race should be 5 or less. We don't want every Avatar to be a 25mm-base Carnifex. )
Ld: 10


EDIT: Also, why do Tau get a higher max S and T characteristic than Space Marines? I know the suits start at S4, T4, but so do Space Marines....